horsegiirL: I always feel like I get growing pains when I’m about to reach the next skill level. It’s almost like in The Sims: to raise the skill bar to 80% – that’s kind of easygoing. You can fall back on the progress you’ve made beforehand. But then, these last 20% feel exhausting.

Europa: It’s kind of crazy to say I gave 100%, don’t you think? The capitalist mindset is that there’s always more you can do, or that there will be another person who is better than you. These last two years I had allowed myself to slow down a bit. We are taught that everything in life is supposed to be a step up. If you’re doing less, it’s almost perceived as like a decrease of your value or something. I’ve just noticed that sometimes it’s cool to step back and summon your powers and then to flourish again.

horsegiirL: When I talk about growth, it’s in the sense of true inner and outer growth, whatever that means in that moment. So it means you need to learn how to chill – yeah! It can be hard to reach that conclusion because as you said, the human world has this weird ideology that you are only worth what you produce. 

Europa: But I totally get this thing about the last 20%. It’s a bit like when you go for a run and you reach the last 10% and it feels like a rush when you’re pushing your limits.

horsegiirL: You know, I find a lot of the times when you are really busy, even during memorable moments, they almost seem to pass you by. If I think “Oh my God, this is such a big moment” I can’t focus on actually doing my job. When I was playing the Boiler Room set, for example, I felt completely unequipped for it. I realized on the day of my gig that Boiler Room is quite a big thing. I was so nervous. I did not have any fun. The whole time I went: “Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.”

Europa: Yeah. The Boiler Room is a good example because I was also weirdly nervous before my set. I had never really used Rekordbox at that point. It made me anxious and I started preparing for the event – which I normally never do. Then I realized, I just have to trust how I do things and and just chill the fuck out. And when it happened, everything was super chill, you know? It gave me a lot of reassurance. I could trust the skills that I had and the way I do things. Same when you meet people in the industry: over-exaggerating their importance just messes with your creativity.

horsegiirL: I think it’s a big step in any artist’s becoming to realize that none of the artists that you love or that you get inspired by are higher than you. The only thing that might distance you from them is the time and expertise they’ve put into their craft.

Europa: I agree. I used to always mystify and glorify certain artists but then meeting them, you realize: you have the same fears, the same hopes, the same problems and the facade kind of crumbles. Which is sometimes a bit sad because then this mystic image you created is falling apart. It affects the way you listen to the music. Maybe sometimes it’s fun to have this mystic image of someone.

horsegiirL: I don’t know. I think it’s beautiful that something so emotionally intricate can come out of beings that are not perfect. It leads to this bigger conversation of great art being made by problematic artists. In a way I find it reassuring that there’s no perfect person. 

Europa: What do you think about the distinction between the actual person and the work? Because I was recently talking to a friend about Michael Jackson.

horsegiirL: It’s very difficult. I don’t think there’s a clear answer. I do think that the work and the art are somewhat separate. The beautiful thing about the pieces that an artist leaves behind is that they can stand for themselves. And they will gain new meanings with every generation to come. It’s not really for the artist to decide that. In 300 years, will people listen to a Kanye West record, for example, or will they not? It gets complicated however in terms of putting problematic people on lineups and supporting them while they’re still active.

Europa: I mean, you should maybe do good and beautiful things for the people that come after you, but I want my music to be enjoyed while I am alive and I want to see the looks on people’s faces when I play.

horsegiirL: Most musicians create because they get addicted to this feeling – when you transform something that only existed in your brain into an actual, physical thing. You’re like: „What? This came out of me?“ It doesn’t serve anyone to spend brain power trying to control how people are going to perceive you.

Europa: That’s a beautiful moment. Yeah. It’s absolutely true.

horsegiirL: I don’t think you decide to become an artist. It just happens. This feeling is something you crave over and over again. And the choices you make are based on getting closer to a lifestyle that allows you to do your art. There’s not one way to be an artist, and not everyone has to make money from their art. There are so many amazing artists that have a nine to five job and do amazing things in their free time.

Europa: Well, having the possibility and the privilege plays a role as well. Most of the time people are able to do art because they have the safety to invest their time. It’s like being allowed to fail, almost. So for anybody who’s not able to do that, obviously financial growth is vital because otherwise you can’t practice your art.

horsegiirL: The financial pressure definitely has influenced me too, at times. I felt I had to earn money with art. Any other jobs I was doing made me feel like my soul was being torn to shreds over time. But I do think everyone can be an artist to a degree. If you work a normal job or several jobs you will still always create. You might not ever have a gallery space or put out albums or whatever. But the artistry shows in – I don’t know – the way you decorate your room or how you make little crafts to give to your friends. What I am more worried about are the structures of the music industry that equate artistry with financial or commercial success.

Europa: I had that conversation with some friends of mine. If the commercial or the financial success is not happening at some point, some people start to doubt their stuff. They start questioning: “Is the stuff that I’m doing good?“ That’s how our world works. Value is portrayed in money most of the time. And if it doesn’t come around, you start to doubt. It changes careers, lifestyles, lives. But what you said is beautiful and true. That there’s this flame in you that’s burning and it’s never gonna be extinguished. I mean that’s the reason why you start doing that kind of stuff in the first place.

horsegiirL: I always think of my mom as an artist. She has a normal job and basically the moment she gets off work, she starts creating. And anytime I talk to her and say: „Wow, you could sell this or you could do this or that with it.“ Then she responds with: „No, I don’t want to sell this. I want to make this and I want to gift it to people“ or „I want to show this at an exhibition.“ But basically she says that people would never know the inherent value of each piece. They could never pay the amount that it’s actually worth to her.

Europa: It’s exactly the same with my mom. It’s exactly the same. It’s so funny that you mentioned that. 

horsegiirL: I really admire that – not letting how people see you be a defining factor. Like these types of artists, they don’t care. They have reassurance by just doing what they do.

Final outtake:

Europa: I am kind of scared of horses, not gonna lie.

horsegiirL: I am curious how they are going to behave around me.

Europa: Oh my God, I haven’t even thought about that. What if they end up falling in love with you or something?